[Avedis53]

Just remember the general rule of thumb is more than 50% meth is flammable.

In the interest of accuracy, ≥ 20% MEOH/water mixtures are considered flammable.

 

[Ddnspider]

In the interest of accuracy, ≥ 20% MEOH/water mixtures are considered flammable.

Ive always been curious about that. Ive seen it generally stated EVERYWHERE that 50% was the threshold, but read from a member on another board that he lit a bottle of windshield washer fluid on fire.

 

[17awdQ50P]

Ive always been curious about that. Ive seen it generally stated EVERYWHERE that 50% was the threshold, but read from a member on another board that he lit a bottle of windshield washer fluid on fire.

Same, I know avedis is technically correct, but there is a reason why premixed formulas are always 49/51 and why everyone states 50%, i think it involves vapors vs liquids and something along the lines of how gas in a liquid doesnt ignite easily, the vapors do. and at 50%+ water it hits a threshold to no longer be treated as a flammable goods for shipping purposes. I don’t know all the exact science, but for all intensive purposes I believe 50% is the threshold to be concerned about, but avedis is technically correct.

 

[Avedis53]

Ive always been curious about that. Ive seen it generally stated EVERYWHERE that 50% was the threshold, but read from a member on another board that he lit a bottle of windshield washer fluid on fire.

Where's everywhere? Car forums?

A 50% mixture by volume of MEOH and water has a flash point of about 80°F.

 

[Ddnspider]

Where's everywhere? Car forums?
....

People who build racecars and run single digit times.

 

[17awdQ50P]

Where's everywhere? Car forums?

A 50% mixture by volume of MEOH and water has a flash point of about 80°F.

View attachment 102729

35%+ MEOH sits less than 2 feet away from 200F+ engine bay temps with no issues. and also why you can throw a match at a bucket of gas and it wont ignite Gasoline has a flash point of -45°F and an auto-ignition temperature of 536°F . Flash point vs autoignition point, I think at 50% MEOH it doesn't produce enough vapors to ignite or something along those lines, the liquid form of pure methanol is 433F auto ignition temp. I have also had an active meth line pop off in engine bay facing my engine with a 49% MEOH mix and no fire took place.

 

[Ddnspider]

.... I have also had an active meth line pop off in engine bay facing my engine with a 49% MEOH mix and no fire took place.

That's just because meth burns clear

 

[17awdQ50P]

That's just because meth burns clear

True, but nothing on fire, burnt residue etc.. zero signs of fire. The liquid doesn’t ignite easily. That’s why fuel and methanol need to be highly atomized.

 

[Ddnspider]

True, but nothing on fire, burnt residue etc.. zero signs of fire. The liquid doesn’t ignite easily. That’s why fuel and methanol need to be highly atomized.

It was a joke because most people don't know it burns clear.

 

[17awdQ50P]

It was a joke because most people don't know it burns clear.

I believe most WWF and premixes (boost juice) have a dye or additives to burn with a color.

 

[Ddnspider]

I believe most WWF and premixes (boost juice) have a dye or additives to burn with a color.

The additive is to see it period since water and meth is clear. I.e. you can see it in the lines and tank. It won't impact the burn color.

 

[17awdQ50P]

The additive is to see it period since water and meth is clear. I.e. you can see it in the lines and tank. It won't impact the burn color.

I worded that incorrectly. You are correct about the purpose of the dye.

“have a dye or additives that burn with a color. “

or so I’ve read/heard but have not tested or actually seen proof so you may be correct in the dye not changing burn color.

 

[Avedis53]

35%+ MEOH sits less than 2 feet away from 200F+ engine bay temps with no issues. and also why you can throw a match at a bucket of gas and it wont ignite Gasoline has a flash point of -45°F and an auto-ignition temperature of 536°F . Flash point vs autoignition point, I think at 50% MEOH it doesn't produce enough vapors to ignite or something along those lines, the liquid form of pure methanol is 433F auto ignition temp. I have also had an active meth line pop off in engine bay facing my engine with a 49% MEOH mix and no fire took place.

I can see that some clarification is needed here as there is some confusion about how volatiles combust. Let's start with some definitions.

In practically all cases, you need three things for fire to exist; fuel, temperature, and oxygen. Take any one of those away and no fire.

Flash point - The lowest temperature at which THE VAPOR from a volatile substance will ignite (but not necessarily continue burning) when exposed to an ignition source AND adequate oxygen is available for combustion. Take a bucket of gas and throw a match in it? Depending on the temperature of the gasoline, the associated vapor pressure may not be great enough to volatilize sufficient gas above the liquid phase to ignite. Then there's the matter of not being in a confined space. An open bucket exposed to air flow may reduce the concentration of gasoline vapor below the LEL and no ignition will result when a match is thrown in it. The conditions of the liquid gasoline temperature, airflow around the liquid interface, and temperature of the ignition source necessary to ignite gas all have to be just right in order for the gas to ignite. There's plenty of YouTube videos that demonstrate this.

I'm not sure what your point is regarding 35% MEOH sitting less than two feet away from a 200+ degree engine bay. Of course there's no issues. I'm assuming your 35% MEOH solution is residing in a tank. No appreciable oxygen and no ignition source in the tank. Open the tank and allow some oxygen in and add an ignition source. You should be able to ignite the MEOH vapor above the liquid phase as the vapor's flash point is about 90°F.

There's something called the fire point which is the minimum temperature that the vapor of the fuel will continue to burn for at least 5 seconds after ignition by an open flame. This is typically about 10°C above the flash point.

Auto ignition point - This is the minimum temperature in which a volatile substance spontaneously ignites in a normal atmosphere without an external source of ignition. Put pure MEOH in a container with a lid on it, heat it to 433°F, then take the lid off, and as soon as enough oxygen mixes with the vapor, spontaneous combustion occurs with no ignition source. Put the lid back on and the the fire goes out because of lack of oxygen. If you take the lid off and the MEOH is still at 433°F, it will ignite again. This brings us back to gasoline. It's vapor is extremely flammable with a flash point of -45°F but it's auto ignition temperature is 536°F, so the liquid gasoline isn't readily flammable at normal temperatures and you can throw a match in it and the odds of it catching fire are extremely low.

 

[17awdQ50P]

I can see that some clarification is needed here as there is some confusion about how volatiles combust. Let's start with some definitions.

In practically all cases, you need three things for fire to exist; fuel, temperature, and oxygen. Take any one of those away and no fire.

Flash point - The lowest temperature at which THE VAPOR from a volatile substance will ignite (but not necessarily continue burning) when exposed to an ignition source AND adequate oxygen is available for combustion. Take a bucket of gas and throw a match in it? Depending on the temperature of the gasoline, the associated vapor pressure may not be great enough to volatilize sufficient gas above the liquid phase to ignite. Then there's the matter of not being in a confined space. An open bucket exposed to air flow may reduce the concentration of gasoline vapor below the LEL and no ignition will result when a match is thrown in it. The conditions of the liquid gasoline temperature, airflow around the liquid interface, and temperature of the ignition source necessary to ignite gas all have to be just right in order for the gas to ignite. There's plenty of YouTube videos that demonstrate this.

I'm not sure what your point is regarding 35% MEOH sitting less than two feet away from a 200+ degree engine bay. Of course there's no issues. I'm assuming your 35% MEOH solution is residing in a tank. No appreciable oxygen and no ignition source in the tank. Open the tank and allow some oxygen in and add an ignition source. You should be able to ignite the MEOH vapor above the liquid phase as the vapor's flash point is about 90°F.

There's something called the fire point which is the minimum temperature that the vapor of the fuel will continue to burn for at least 5 seconds after ignition by an open flame. This is typically about 10°C above the flash point.

Auto ignition point - This is the minimum temperature in which a volatile substance spontaneously ignites in a normal atmosphere without an external source of ignition. Put pure MEOH in a container with a lid on it, heat it to 433°F, then take the lid off, and as soon as enough oxygen mixes with the vapor, spontaneous combustion occurs with no ignition source. Put the lid back on and the the fire goes out because of lack of oxygen. If you take the lid off and the MEOH is still at 433°F, it will ignite again. This brings us back to gasoline. It's vapor is extremely flammable with a flash point of -45°F but it's auto ignition temperature is 536°F, so the liquid gasoline isn't readily flammable at normal temperatures and you can throw a match in it and the odds of it catching fire are extremely low.

The flash point of a chemical is the lowest temperature where it will evaporate enough fluid to form a combustible concentration of gas.

50/50 MEOH FP is just over “standard” room temperature (75F). Which is probably why it’s considered the “safe” max mixture for use/storage as only an insignificant amount of vapors will be able to form unlike a higher methanol % mix.

also wanted to correct myself/your post which you probably just referenced mine. 433C or 811F not 433F, big difference lol.

My point was in practical applications 50/50 MEOH should be considered relatively safe/risk free even if the FP point is only 75F. Saying 50/50 isn’t flammable while technically wrong isn’t entirely inaccurate for practical applications. Which I wouldn’t claim for a higher percentage of methanol. But maybe current personal location temps and storage conditions should be considered when determining mix % to keep it primarily under the FP temp.

 

[IridiumRS400]

🍿

And where's @xBlitzkriegx? We need a 4th POV here... LOL

 

[xBlitzkriegx]

🍿

And where's @xBlitzkriegx? We need a 4th POV here... LOL

OOF. unsure if i should feel flattered or insulted. the proper answer is probably, "Yes".

few things here. 50/50 mix isnt necessarily flammable but it can produce a flame in certain circumstances. in a car, this would probably only happen if there was a massive crash that allowed the mixture to pool of a wide area and lots of sustained heat was applied. as the methanol evaporated, it would be easier to ignite the vapor.

i dont think flammability between the mixtures is very important in the grand scheme of things. choosing the mixture amount matters more.50/50 is used for several reasons: price, much easier to ship, and its easier on parts. 100% methanol will make more power, period. but, it costs more, its corrosive over time among other things.

 

[Avedis53]

The flash point of a chemical is the lowest temperature where it will evaporate enough fluid to form a combustible concentration of gas.

50/50 MEOH FP is just over “standard” room temperature (75F). Which is probably why it’s considered the “safe” max mixture for use/storage as only an insignificant amount of vapors will be able to form unlike a higher methanol % mix.

also wanted to correct myself/your post which you probably just referenced mine. 433C or 811F not 433F, big difference lol.

My point was in practical applications 50/50 MEOH should be considered relatively safe/risk free even if the FP point is only 75F. Saying 50/50 isn’t flammable while technically wrong isn’t entirely inaccurate for practical applications. Which I wouldn’t claim for a higher percentage of methanol. But maybe current personal location temps and storage conditions should be considered when determining mix % to keep it primarily under the FP temp.

I just used your number as I was too lazy to look it up. The actual value isn't relevant anyway, just that there's a huge difference in vapor and liquid flammability.

I never said any of these concentrations typically used for WMI were risky as used, just that under the right conditions they can burn. I'd have no issue with a reservoir of MEOH/water in my car.

 

[17awdQ50P]

I just used your number as I was too lazy to look it up. The actual value isn't relevant anyway, just that there's a huge difference in vapor and liquid flammability.

I never said any of these concentrations typically used for WMI were risky as used, just that under the right conditions they can burn. I'd have no issue with a reservoir of MEOH/water in my car.

My first post and in several subsequent posts stated you are correct about FP being relatively low/it being flammable etc… Never stated otherwise.

The rest of my post/posts was specifically in regards to how yes what you stated is true, it is rather irrelevant to the end user looking to use WMI and I went into further explanation as to why, and why 50/50 mix is typically the max prefered mix, someone not knowing any better could easily read your post and get scared off of methanol if they didn’t understand the difference between flash point and auto ignition.

I’ve seen it/had this conversation many times on other forums with people mentioning flash point temp and thinking or causing others to think methanol is some extremely dangerous, ready to combust at any moment just by looking at it wrong substance they should stay away from. When in reality it’s pretty safe and stable. Even in an accident you would need an open flame unrelated to the methanol but near the methanol to then possibly ignite the methanol.

Not claiming your intent was to mislead anyone by any means, or claiming you are wrong, my previous posts explicitly stated you are correct.

 

[SkylineDreamz]

Washer fluid… who knew? I mean seriously. Did some guy decide to clean his carburetors one day with the vehicle running and only had a spray bottle and washer fluid and though ‘eh, what the hell’ and whoosh! History changed… kinda like the spear. What caveman was looking at his flint knife and thought, ‘if I put a branch on this thing, I bet I could take a mammoth.’ Life’s mysteries, man. Life’s mysteries.

 

[Ddnspider]

Washer fluid… who knew? I mean seriously. Did some guy decide to clean his carburetors one day with the vehicle running and only had a spray bottle and washer fluid and though ‘eh, what the hell’ and whoosh! History changed… kinda like the spear. What caveman was looking at his flint knife and thought, ‘if I put a branch on this thing, I bet I could take a mammoth.’ Life’s mysteries, man. Life’s mysteries.

More like....someone didn't want to mix their own combination of water and meth and looked for a cheap alternative. There's actually a table available online of the meth concentration of several brands of WWF lol.