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Discussion Starter #41
(ITB17-035
Answer is, 'safe' levels is the ethanol included from the pump when using regular octane gas. Any e blending and YMMV. I've seen people run e30 on stock pumps no problem, I've seen people install the HPFP and blow an injector on 93 before they could even add E. I've also seen an injector blow on stock pumps, 93 only. No 2 cases are similar. The moment you add E, you are at an inherent risk of something failing.
I think the stock system has some inherit flaws regardless of E, maybe E exacerbates it, maybe not.
"The moment you drive off the lot, you are at an inherent risk of something failing" revised it for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Same part number but new batches; Infiniti themselves state (ITB17-035) that the fuel rail must be replaced.
Maybe my googlefu isnt as good as yours,
I have seen AMS article mentioned the TSB - ITB17-035 but i can not find the actual TSB from Infiniti. i want to read it.
Can you provide a link?

new oem fuel rails are pretty cheap and easy to replace. if newer ones some how are better or prevent this issue it is an easy solution. or does it just reset the clock on the ticking time bomb?
 

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Be respectful of others when debating this topic or this thread will be locked.
 
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Be respectful of others when debating this topic or this thread will be locked.
Please lock it up. There isn't going to be a revelation and reason isn't winning. No good will come from leaving it open.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Please lock it up. There isn't going to be a revelation and reason isn't winning. No good will come from leaving it open.
You could simply just ignore this thread, and not participate in it.
No reason in trying to limit and censor peoples ability for open discourse who care to participate in this discussion.
 

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As long as a healthy debate remains respectful, I'm not inclined to close a thread. When I see profanity directed at others and tempers getting short, is when I will step in.
 

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You could simply just ignore this thread, and not participate in it.
No reason in trying to limit and censor peoples ability for open discourse who care to participate in this discussion.
I'm not censoring anybody. There's just no point in continuing the back and forth. You do understand that you've literally tried to argue or counter EVERY person whose posted in here right? @BigHeadClan @Malmby @serstylz2 and me who've all given you experiences specific to this platform and information from AMS and Infiniti. You ask a question and then as soon as someone provides information, you try to nitpick a point or counter it. It's just a waste of time.
 

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Most TSB articles aren't freely available to the internet and require a subscription to a device to gain access.

95195



Only way we are likely to see the actual TSB is if one of the resident Infiniti mechanics post it for us to review.
 
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Discussion Starter #49
I'm not censoring anybody. There's just no point in continuing the back and forth. You do understand that you've literally tried to argue or counter EVERY person whose posted in here right? @BigHeadClan @Malmby @serstylz2 and me who've all given you experiences specific to this platform and information from AMS and Infiniti. You ask a question and then as soon as someone provides information, you try to nitpick a point or counter it. It's just a waste of time.
it takes two to tango, you have continued the back an forth entirely on your own decision.
I do not just take everything anyone says as gospel, i appreciate the input, and value your conclusions based on your experience/research, but i do not think anyone has or at least has provided definitive proof or evidence indicating one way or another just opinion and anecdotes (possibly correlation not being causation) (except maybe fuel rails are the root cause of the issue regardless of fuel type).

AMS and infiniti have primarily only stated about fuel rails "chipping" leading to injector failure (not how much of this is related to E), which i have pretty much agreed with them and yourself to be the case. However infiniti, as well as what @serstylz2 (who i never argued or disagreed with btw) stated its basically a crap shoot with injector failure regardless of E. Lots of failures on stock cars with pump gas.

But,
Beyond all this the thread wasn't even about ethanol compatibility/issues (which is what this turned into), but rather the stock fuel systems ability to flow fuel. Does it have the headroom to accommodate the extra flow needed for ethanol and by how much, or at what E / PSI combination to keep duty cycle at or under 85% max. The 1st post may have not have clarified this but the second post I made i thought clarified this.

What are peoples max injector duty cycles at with FBO + 19psi peak boost on pump gas, or FBO +15psi peak boost on pump?(as my plan is to run something like 15psi tapered to 12psi with E30 on just AMS LPFP before i get AMS injectors, HPFP and custom tune) Or people who have FBO + increased boost running E30 what is your max injector duty cycle and at what psi? This is all i was really wanting to know from my OP.

I am also ordering new fuel rails to swap in as its like 200$ for the pair, but curious if the new ones are improved some how. or just resets the clock on the ticking time bomb?
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Most TSB articles aren't freely available to the internet and require a subscription to a device to gain access.

View attachment 95195


Only way we are likely to see the actual TSB is if one of the resident Infiniti mechanics post it for us to review.
Thanks , i thought i just didn't know how to google when i couldn't find it.
I am just curious how replacing those "fixes" the issue, if some revisions of the parts have been made since, or is it just as likely to return as the root cause is never actually fixed/addressed.

Probably to soon to tell, if 2019/2020 are having this same issue or if it is primarily 18s and older?
 

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Thanks , i thought i just didn't know how to google when i couldn't find it.
I am just curious how replacing those "fixes" the issue, if some revisions of the parts have been made since, or is it just as likely to return as the root cause is never actually fixed/addressed.

Probably to soon to tell, if 2019/2020 are having this same issue or if it is primarily 18s and older?
To soon to tell, it could be it was simply a manufacturing defect as AMS is offering a replacement with the same PN and not an after-market unit
of their own design. So I suspect the TSB would only be listed to affect a specific model range of cars, but this is just me reading between the lines.
 
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Infiniti and AMS providing formal responses is data even if its qualitative and not quantitative. Further data shows that no one has swapped the HPFP and NOT had an injector failure is also a strong indicator. It doesn't help that the majority of people swapping the HPFP are doing so because they want to use higher E content. It's a fact that the stock fuel system was not designed to run higher Ethanol content fuels, otherwise it would have been labeled a flex fuel system. Arguing this point is inference. You can always talk about margin in a fuel system when talking about fuel pump size and fuel injector size for a given fuel. You can't talk about margin when it comes to using alternate fuels that the stock system wasn't designed for. A fuel system either is or is not designed to work with E85. That's why vendors specifically state "E85 capable".
 

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Discussion Starter #53
From AMS. Don’t think some people actually read this.... it is pretty on point to what i saying and completely the opposite of what others are saying who are posting this as “evidence”

“On social media groups and forums, we have seen some of these fuel injector failures incorrectly attributed to various causes, including installing a HPFP, or simply by utilizing an ethanol based fuel. These theories have been commonly parroted by average enthusiasts, and of course have been made with no evidence or technical investigation

“We can also deduce that because there is a technical service bulletin (TSB) specifically dealing with injector failure in the VR30, that this is a strong indication that engine and/or fuel system modifications, or using ethanol fuel, are not the root cause of the failures seen”

“However, it is certainly plausible that with the increased pressure and resonance that an aftermarket HPFP adds, the metallic material within the fuel rail would be more likely to dislodge and enter an injector, causing a failure. This may be why it is more common for the community to see failures in cars with upgraded fuel systems, running ethanol fuel.”
 

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From AMS. Don’t think some people actually read this.... it is pretty on point to what i saying and completely the opposite of what others are saying who are posting this as “evidence”

“On social media groups and forums, we have seen some of these fuel injector failures incorrectly attributed to various causes, including installing a HPFP, or simply by utilizing an ethanol based fuel. These theories have been commonly parroted by average enthusiasts, and of course have been made with no evidence or technical investigation

“We can also deduce that because there is a technical service bulletin (TSB) specifically dealing with injector failure in the VR30, that this is a strong indication that engine and/or fuel system modifications, or using ethanol fuel, are not the root cause of the failures seen”

“However, it is certainly plausible that with the increased pressure and resonance that an aftermarket HPFP adds, the metallic material within the fuel rail would be more likely to dislodge and enter an injector, causing a failure. This may be why it is more common for the community to see failures in cars with upgraded fuel systems, running ethanol fuel.”
LOL way to be passive aggressive. How about you get off your high horse and stop trying to condescend when you don't even understand the platform yet. You didn't buy into the AMS article and now suddenly you're trying to cherry pick statements from it.
I saw that article but it didn’t seem 100% conclusive. I also saw a lot of people thinking/assuming it was contaminants introduced from the install. And peoples findings indicating a large portion of failures happened in the 1st week after install of HPFP but if they made it past the 1st week or two tha failure rate drastically reduced. Which would indicate contaminants from install.
You've been all over the place in your "theory". Just read your own words.....You've said everything from contamination, to saturation of the injectors, to fuel rails chipping....to "luck".

blablablabla.... Which would indicate contaminants from install.
blablablabla....

So my theory is that the failures that where not from contamination are from maxing injectors too long. Not from any inherent corrosive properties of ethanol but the increased fuel demand.

blablablabla....
blablablabla....

and I believe either
A. The stock fuel system has an inherent issue stock regardless of fuel type and you just get unlucky.
B. Contaminants are introduced into the system when changing HPFP which is typically for E85, so correlation doesn’t equal causation.
C. Injectors are essentially burning out from being maxed out too long once running higher boost/power in addition to E30+

D. Stock fuel rails can’t adequately handle the pressure and flow rate of the aftermarket HPFP causing the metal “chipping”

blablablabla....
 

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Discussion Starter #55 (Edited)
Cherry picking would be pulling out small miner details and strategically leaving out important information. Not quating half the article in entire complete paragraphs. I wasn’t the one citing ams as my source for arguing ethanol is the primary cause. I gave numerous “theories” none of which AMS article said was incorrect. The two difinitive conclusion from AMS is ethanol has nothing to do with it and the root cause is from the factory fuel rails nothing to do with ethanol. The higher pressure from HPFP might exacerbate the issue and it’s wise to add a inline fuel filter and keep a clean work area to eliminate contamination.
The only one of my A-D theories not backed by AMS article is C. Which I stated was a theory that seemed plausible. And theory A was the primary issue. The entire main points/basis for my theories (mostly backed by AMS article) Is that ethanol isn’t a contributing factor or a very small contribution. Not a primary reason like you argued.
 

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I cited AMS regarding a prefilter not fixing the injector failures based on the AMS analysis. Let me quote for you.

I believe a pre-rail filter isn't a guaranteed fix either given the AMS analysis. They alluded to the fact that the inside of the rails are chipping off and getting stuck in the injector. A pre-rail filter won't fix this.
As I said earlier, its your car, your $. You do you. Good luck with your setup.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
I cited AMS regarding a prefilter not fixing the injector failures based on the AMS analysis. Let me quote for you.

As I said earlier, its your car, your $. You do you. Good luck with your setup.
I didn’t say it was a 100% fix. But a good measure to help with the issue.

AMS seems to agree as it’s their second suggested corrective action.

“Secondly, we suggest installing a fine micron inline fuel filter in the engine bay. These inline filters will reduce the likelihood of any material entering the injectors from the fuel tank”
 
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