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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hey Everybody!

Nick here from Mishimoto! I just wanted to kick off this thread since we're a few weeks into our Q50/60 performance intercooler development, and we're really excited to share! The 3.0T that Infiniti crammed under the hood of these vehicles is quickly becoming a favorite here at Mishimoto, and we're stoked to take this platform even further. Make sure that you're following along with the development here, and on our Engineering Blog:

TRICKLE DOWN POWER – PERFORMANCE INTERCOOLER KIT R&D, PART 1 – STOCK REVIEW



For those not familiar with the concept of air-to-water intercooling, let’s dive in for a crash course. The end goal for any intercooler is to pull heat from the charged air and provide the engine with cooler, more dense air, providing better combustion. Where an air-to-air system uses a fresh air source to achieve this, an air-to-water system utilizes coolant. While these systems are more complex than their counterparts, they have plenty of advantages.

For starters, water, the primary ingredient in coolant, has a superior thermal conductivity than air and is much more effective at whisking away the heat from your charged air, resulting in much more consistent intake air temperatures. Also, since the coolant is constantly cycling through the system thanks to the pump, or pumps if you opted for the Red Sport, the intercooler is less prone to heat soak.

The primary heat dissipation of the air-to-water system is performed by an additional radiator, otherwise known as a heat exchanger, which is typically added to the vehicle’s cooling stack. This means there is much more flexibility on intercooler placement in the engine bay. For example, the intercoolers in the Q50 and Q60 affix directly to the throttle bodies, eliminating any need for long intercooling piping and significantly increasing efficiency.

We've got big plans and plenty more to come, so make sure that you keep your eyes peeled!

As always, don't hesitate to reach out with any questions!

Thanks,
Nick
 

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how much faster will these new intercoolers saturate the mishimoto heat exchanger vs the oem cores with regards to a tuned Q50 making around 450whp? i do understand that these cores will most likely be for people looking for power above that figure but 400-500rwhp is what most people are making currently with the tiny turbos.

has it been determined at what cfm the oem intercoolers are a problem? has there been testing in regards to pressure drop or boost drop across the cores?

the oem units dont seem to have an issue overwhelming all the aftermarket heat exchangers in about 20 seconds flat, though they do recovery decently fast. how are larger units going to interact with your heat exchanger? are you going to recommend a remote water tank in the trunk since you just about cant get a larger HX in the grill area.

seems there's just not much room to fit a larger AWIC and most improvement is going to come from end tanks unless people are willing to remove the engine cover so a thicker core can be used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
how much faster will these new intercoolers saturate the mishimoto heat exchanger vs the oem cores with regards to a tuned Q50 making around 450whp? i do understand that these cores will most likely be for people looking for power above that figure but 400-500rwhp is what most people are making currently with the tiny turbos.

has it been determined at what cfm the oem intercoolers are a problem? has there been testing in regards to pressure drop or boost drop across the cores?

the oem units dont seem to have an issue overwhelming all the aftermarket heat exchangers in about 20 seconds flat, though they do recovery decently fast. how are larger units going to interact with your heat exchanger? are you going to recommend a remote water tank in the trunk since you just about cant get a larger HX in the grill area.

seems there's just not much room to fit a larger AWIC and most improvement is going to come from end tanks unless people are willing to remove the engine cover so a thicker core can be used.

These are all AWESOME questions!

Right now, to answer a few of these performance questions, we'll have figures on all of those data points once we get to our testing phase. We hold off on most testing until we have our production level units in house so that we can run tests in the same conditions for more precise results. But, we will be testing cooling capacity, heat soak, flow, pressure, and plenty more.

You're absolutely right in saying that there isn't very much room to expand, but we're still going to take advantage of the little space we have. We're also planning on re-working the end tanks for better flow along with using a bar-and-plate core to mitigate heat soak.

I know that there wasn't much in the way of direct answers there, BUT we will have them once we start testing.

Thanks!
Nick
 

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Your candid reply is as welcomed as the actual answers would be, all things considered.

My biggest concern is that a more efficient intercooler would overwhelm an aftermarket heat exchanger even quicker than the OEM units do now.

You'll never be able to fit a large enough intercooler to keep temps in check, it/they would need to be as large as the car. Anything larger than stock will help, especially at higher levels.
 
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There are several options for managing the temps of the HX/IC fluid temp. The main limiting factor is the IC capacity for dissipating the heat from the intake air. Yes once this is fixed/improved it will stress the HX/fluid side more but with lots of HX options like ams new race HX, larger reservoir, auxiliary tanks, interchiller/killerchiller.

A larger IC is a welcome upgrade especially if it can be done for a reasonable price. There is another IC option introduced to the market recently that looks promising, but the price is pretty steep. Hopefully the Mishimoto can hit that perfect price point to make it a viable option for many on the platform.
 

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like ams new race HX, larger reservoir, auxiliary tanks, interchiller/killerchiller.
Well, you know Mishimoto will use their own brand of HE, which is comparable to the "standard" size AMS HE, for the IC development testing, which is good because it will test at the lower capacity of the IC System. This assumes that if you ante'd up the bigger ICs, you wouldn't pair it with the stock HE.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Your candid reply is as welcomed as the actual answers would be, all things considered.

My biggest concern is that a more efficient intercooler would overwhelm an aftermarket heat exchanger even quicker than the OEM units do now.

You'll never be able to fit a large enough intercooler to keep temps in check, it/they would need to be as large as the car. Anything larger than stock will help, especially at higher levels.
That's definitely a valid concern, and it's something that we'll be taking into account while designing and testing for sure. Increasing the size or changing flow pattern too much, we found, can end up negatively affecting the cooling power of the full system. I know the applications differ, but we plan on utilizing a lot of the procedures and expertise we gained while developing our F80 intercooler and HX, not to mention everything that we've already learned from our Q50/60 heat exchanger R&D.



There are several options for managing the temps of the HX/IC fluid temp. The main limiting factor is the IC capacity for dissipating the heat from the intake air. Yes once this is fixed/improved it will stress the HX/fluid side more but with lots of HX options like ams new race HX, larger reservoir, auxiliary tanks, interchiller/killerchiller.

A larger IC is a welcome upgrade especially if it can be done for a reasonable price. There is another IC option introduced to the market recently that looks promising, but the price is pretty steep. Hopefully the Mishimoto can hit that perfect price point to make it a viable option for many on the platform.
Like @IridiumRS400 said, we actually already offer a performance heat exchanger for the Q50/60s! Make sure you check out the R&D blog for that as well - Q50/60 Heat Exchanger R&D - Mishimoto Engineering Blog


Thanks!
-Nick
 

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That's definitely a valid concern, and it's something that we'll be taking into account while designing and testing for sure. Increasing the size or changing flow pattern too much, we found, can end up negatively affecting the cooling power of the full system. I know the applications differ, but we plan on utilizing a lot of the procedures and expertise we gained while developing our F80 intercooler and HX, not to mention everything that we've already learned from our Q50/60 heat exchanger R&D.





Like @IridiumRS400 said, we actually already offer a performance heat exchanger for the Q50/60s! Make sure you check out the R&D blog for that as well - Q50/60 Heat Exchanger R&D - Mishimoto Engineering Blog


Thanks!
-Nick
Yup, but Xblitzkriegz is concerned with heat soaking the “generic” after market heat exchangers. Hence the post with alternative/supplemental options.
 

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One more point - it's not just heat rejection, but flow, as well. Is your shop car a Red Sport w/two IC pumps? If not, the secondary pump should be fitted, and with a Consult, check the duty cycle of the second IC pump, as it is switched "on" by the ECM, depending on command.
 

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for the intercoolers, pressure drop across the core will be a better way to determine efficiency.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yup, but Xblitzkriegz is concerned with heat soaking the “generic” after market heat exchangers. Hence the post with alternative/supplemental options.
Understood! That's something that we'll have a better answer for once we collect our data. I can't say for sure if any other heat exchangers will also be tested, but I know that we will be at least testing the efficiency of our intercoolers with the stock and our heat exchangers

One more point - it's not just heat rejection, but flow, as well. Is your shop car a Red Sport w/two IC pumps? If not, the secondary pump should be fitted, and with a Consult, check the duty cycle of the second IC pump, as it is switched "on" by the ECM, depending on command.
Yup! We dug into differences between the pump systems back when we were developing the heat exchanger. We were testing with a Q50RS that was running a custom tune for that project and needed some more insight on how the pumps operated. Unfortunately, that vehicle isn't available anymore, but we were able to take in plenty of information an experience with this platform.

for the intercoolers, pressure drop across the core will be a better way to determine efficiency.
Yup! This is all part of our testing procedure!


-Nick
 

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@Mishimoto what is the preliminary schedule for this? It's probably too soon for a definite answer but a ballpark works.

Expected end date of R&D, Expected start date of production (given initial R&D schedule doesn't move to the right). Expected price to the consumer. Etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
@Mishimoto what is the preliminary schedule for this? It's probably too soon for a definite answer but a ballpark works.

Expected end date of R&D, Expected start date of production (given initial R&D schedule doesn't move to the right). Expected price to the consumer. Etc.
These are great questions! So, with the way things still are currently I do have to start with the disclaimer that a lot of these estimates are very much subject to change. With that said, we're aiming for performance testing over the winter, and start our presale around mid-spring with our pricing dropping around the presale. That's all of the info that I can share at the moment on our schedule, especially since we're still very early in the process, BUT I'll be sure to keep you guys in the loop throughout the entire process.

Oh! One thing I can say for sure is that I'll have another blog post update dropping in about a week, so keep your eye out for that!

-Nick
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hey Guys!

I just wanted to bump this thread with that blog post update as promised! Make sure you head to the Engineering Blog to check out the full scoop!

TRICKLE DOWN POWER – 2016+ INFINITI Q50/60 3.0T PERFORMANCE INTERCOOLER DESIGN PLANS AND PROTOTYPES



Speaking of flow, our core isn’t the only aspect that we plan to overhaul. The intercoolers’ end tanks originally featured some sharp angles and restrictive rubber charge pipes, which could limit the tuning potential of your VR30DDTT. Dave had a better idea, though. He plans to ditch the charge pipes and extend the intercooler inlets further down to meet the turbo with a short coupler. This updated end tank design significantly reduces potential leaks from degrading charge pipes. The new end tank shape will also vastly reduce airflow restrictions and turbulence, allowing for a smoother flow to the core. We’re also plotting on ditching all of the plastic and opting for a more sleek and sturdy cast aluminum construction.
As always, feel free to reach out with any questions that you might have!

-Nick
 

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does the engine cover fit?
I do see the studs for the engine cover but it's hard to tell if there is adequate clearance.
 

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I assume that pic has 3D printed boxes and not the real coolers. There are no couplers in the pic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
does the engine cover fit?
We're planning to include a set of spacers which will allow the engine cover to fit without interference

I assume that pic has 3D printed boxes and not the real coolers. There are no couplers in the pic.
That is correct! We always triple check our designs with fitment prototypes to ensure that our final production level units won't run into fitment issues

-Nick
 

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We're planning to include a set of spacers which will allow the engine cover to fit without interference

That is correct! We always triple check our designs with fitment prototypes to ensure that our final production level units won't run into fitment issues

-Nick
Nick:

Would it make sense to incorporate a bleed port for each IC to facilitate getting the air out of the system when installing these ICs? They are at the highest point in the coolant loop. While not everyone has a Consult tool handy, the alternative has been to use an Airlift tool, which is fine, but that's also because Infiniti didn't place a bleed-off port at the top of either the radiator coolant loop or the IC coolant loop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Nick:

Would it make sense to incorporate a bleed port for each IC to facilitate getting the air out of the system when installing these ICs? They are at the highest point in the coolant loop. While not everyone has a Consult tool handy, the alternative has been to use an Airlift tool, which is fine, but that's also because Infiniti didn't place a bleed-off port at the top of either the radiator coolant loop or the IC coolant loop.
That's a great point!

So, from what we know from our HX development, this system should be self bleeding, provided that you're keeping the intercooling system's expansion tank full while you let the fluid circulate through the system. The only time an Airlift tool is fully necessary is when the system is fully drained since the intercooler water pumps aren't self-priming. That said, however, we're still planning to take a look into the bleeding procedure with our new intercoolers, and still having an additional bleeding point is never a bad idea! We actually added one on our heat exchanger to help simplify the process as well.

-Nick
 
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