[q60Rob]

Interesting. I am glad a legitimate company has begun looking further into this as all there currently is, are mostly first-hand experiences with this issue. Their testing seems extensive and legitimate.

This problem seems to range from the water pump, to radiator cap, coolant lines, reservoir tank being warped, to the final porous block being an issue; which even then it varies.

I had coolant issues, particularly an external leak. I too was doubtful that the casting itself was porous, as like many mentioned, a porous block would show wear much earlier on into a cars life as opposed to the mile ranges we see by reported users, which is all across the board. I changed my thermostat and reservoirs but had a continued leak. Based off of Depanda's q50 thread here about galley gaskets, I decided to look into them. He informed me that similar to what AMS has reported here, that while the galleys stopped his leak, he actually had a cracked head bolt where it continued to leak. In a Hail Mary attempt, I had my galley gaskets replaced and that stopped the leaking coolant for me. For any users interested, I have a thread on my journey trying to resolve my coolant loss.

For any users trying to resolve their coolant loss: 1) Doing an oil test to check if your oil is mixing. This will show any external leaks (Either through Blackstone or just pour coolant UV dye into your reservoir. Using a blacklight, you can open your oil cap and see if the UV activates. If it does, you know your coolant and oil is mixing. You can also just check for milk substance). 2) UV dye or oil test will let you know how to proceed. Galley gaskets are super cheap, the labor is what will get you.

 

[Turbonut]

Have a question. Maybe I should ask AMS, but thought one might know the answer.
I understand how AMS can pressure check and guarantee that the engine they supply, block fine, and heads will not have the crack(s), but how can they guarantee they won't crack in the future when in use, especially if there is a design problem?

I know the Kia/Hyundai engine problem that now has a lifetime warranty and has surpassed a million replacements, they know the problem, but they do the replacement with the same engine, no changes in design, and some have needed it replaced three times. They don't correct the problem, they just use a new long block and hope the engine will last until the car has died of old age, but if not, just replace it once again.

Just curious.

 

[Realfake]

Have a question. Maybe I should ask AMS, but thought one might know the answer.
I understand how AMS can pressure check and guarantee that the engine they supply, block fine, and heads will not have the crack(s), but how can they guarantee they won't crack in the future when in use, especially if there is a design problem?

I know the Kia/Hyundai engine problem that now has a lifetime warranty and has surpassed a million replacements, they know the problem, but they do the replacement with the same engine, no changes in design, and some have needed it replaced three times. They don't correct the problem, they just use a new long block and hope the engine will last until the car has died of old age, but if not, just replace it once again.

Just curious.

When they say they can guarantee they are talking about their fully built long blocks.
As of today's video, No oem head is safe. They said there is an updated part # with no issues but didnt say updated what or # GRRR. I'm assuming 2023+ (nissan z included) heads.

 

[BigHeadClan]

OK, so that is the WHAT of the problem. Didn't answer the WHY part of the issue.

Casting defect?

Too much torque applied to the headbolts during assembly?

Poor design?

Poor design is the root cause, but multiple things can actually cause the problem as they didn't leave enough material around the coolant channels and head bolts, so there is very little margin for error during casting and being slightly over on the torque spec means its easier to over torque the head-bolts and cause a crack.

This is interesting development, we (the private techs I know) knew that it wasn't porous, glad to see somebody with the resources like AMS does investigate it. Infiniti has refused to investigate it, and techs are told to just immediately replace block so none of it is ever truly investigated. Not to mention the time and tools required.

I still am extremely curious as to what they have found with the galley plugs, I will send an email and hope for the best. The galley plugs and washer replacement had helped dozens of independent people so I'm not sure what the verdict on that is.

The plugs showed varnish almost exclusively on the driverside bank 1, and as ams mentions the cracks are on bank1, after re-watching the video im assuming then the crack is just moving aggressively to those plugs.

"We have found that there is an updated part number that we have not found this issue in yet. That is not to say the issue has been solved, just that we have not encountered it yet in our testing."

Let's find the part number

It makes sense it was so hard to find, techs arent literally sawing the head in half like ams, and surely no independent is haha.

They spoke about the plugs very briefly in the video, the crush washers used for the gallery plugs (while not impossible ) never came up in their testing it is the head bolts right next too the gallery plugs. So its possibly a misdiagnosis and the gallery plugs are just the low point and coolant is pooling there after cracks develop or as you said the cracks are traveling towards the plugs.

 

[Pickle Rick]

So can we replace a Q50 VR30 engine with a Nissan 400z VR30? Assuming you had a failure this might be a good way to go

 

[scott_n_ca]

I wonder if AMS is more likely to get failed engines sent in than healthy ones? Cause that’s 2x the rate of coolant contaminated oil engines that blackstone saw.

Guessing dealer doesn’t see a LOT of these as it seems to be failing past warranty on a lot of cars, and they dismiss a lot of failures because of “sludge”. So the probably low % failure rate is the 2% I think realfake has quoted seeing in dealer, and then the 20-40% from blackstone and AMS on the (very) high side.

 

[scott_n_ca]

….regardless at this point there is likely enough data that someone with an out of warranty failure could probably contact a lawyer because I think that’s likely how most warranty extensions end up coming about.

Or just takes an engine or two grenading in traffic reported to NHTSA and they will probably start the investigation themselves

 

[damonb10]

We'll find out when Z's start turning into paper weights.

My point here is that everyone wants to blame engineers. Engineers don't get to run autonomously in a company. In other words, there are other decision makers involved where whether or not an engineer knows something or recommends something may not matter if a different decision maker is calling the shots.

So, don't oversimplify what we don't know.

 

[Pillboy]

Some Japanese executive needs to fall on his sword.

 

[sfvr30]

This is interesting development, we (the private techs I know) knew that it wasn't porous, glad to see somebody with the resources like AMS does investigate it. Infiniti has refused to investigate it, and techs are told to just immediately replace block so none of it is ever truly investigated. Not to mention the time and tools required.

I still am extremely curious as to what they have found with the galley plugs, I will send an email and hope for the best. The galley plugs and washer replacement had helped dozens of independent people so I'm not sure what the verdict on that is.

The plugs showed varnish almost exclusively on the driverside bank 1, and as ams mentions the cracks are on bank1, after re-watching the video im assuming then the crack is just moving aggressively to those plugs.

"We have found that there is an updated part number that we have not found this issue in yet. That is not to say the issue has been solved, just that we have not encountered it yet in our testing."

Let's find the part number

It makes sense it was so hard to find, techs arent literally sawing the head in half like ams, and surely no independent is haha.

part number as in a different block?

 

[Chris2997]

Some Japanese executive needs to fall on his sword.

Seppuku

 

[xBlitzkriegx]

Have a question. Maybe I should ask AMS, but thought one might know the answer.
I understand how AMS can pressure check and guarantee that the engine they supply, block fine, and heads will not have the crack(s), but how can they guarantee they won't crack in the future when in use, especially if there is a design problem?

I know the Kia/Hyundai engine problem that now has a lifetime warranty and has surpassed a million replacements, they know the problem, but they do the replacement with the same engine, no changes in design, and some have needed it replaced three times. They don't correct the problem, they just use a new long block and hope the engine will last until the car has died of old age, but if not, just replace it once again.

Just curious.

1.) they cannot guarantee that.

2.) oftentimes, the tooling changes would cost more than offering a lifetime warranty to replace the engines.

No recall is ever done unless the government forces the company to do so or, it would cost less to fix the design rather than replace the part.

It is always a financial concern first, a lawful concern second, a PR concern third, and then maybe morality further down the road, but only if it is a PR concern as well.

 

[Turbonut]

1.) they cannot guarantee that.

2.) oftentimes, the tooling changes would cost more than offering a lifetime warranty to replace the engines.

No recall is ever done unless the government forces the company to do so or, it would cost less to fix the design rather than replace the part.

It is always a financial concern first, a lawful concern second, a PR concern third, and then maybe morality further down the road, but only if it is a PR concern as well.

I certainly agree with that, but with Hyundai/Kia, although a lifetime engine warranty and millions involved over the 11 years of production, there never was a recall, and therein lies the problem. Long story short, as many engine failures weren't covered because only a letter was sent out by the companies, I contacted the NHTSA twice, with all documentation and recommending a recall notification, but guess they must have been on the Hyundai/Kia payroll as nothing was done to help the owners be aware of the problem.

Pardon all the questions, not overly familiar with Nissan/Infiniti, but did some digging using the OEM part number of the 2023/2024 "Z" cylinder heads and they come up the same as the 2018/2019 Q60. Thought all the Q50/60 3.0T heads were the same, so, once again any insight would be welcomed.

11090-4HK0A Left
11040-4HK0A Right

 

[damonb10]

I certainly agree with that, but with Hyundai/Kia, although a lifetime engine warranty and millions involved over the 11 years of production, there never was a recall, and therein lies the problem. Long story short, as many engine failures weren't covered because only a letter was sent out by the companies, I contacted the NHTSA twice, with all documentation and recommending a recall notification, but guess they must have been on the Hyundai/Kia payroll as nothing was done to help the owners be aware of the problem.

Pardon all the questions, not overly familiar with Nissan/Infiniti, but did some digging using the OEM part number of the 2023/2024 "Z" cylinder heads and they come up the same as the 2018/2019 Q60. Thought all the Q50/60 3.0T heads were the same, so, once again any insight would be welcomed.

11090-4HK0A Left
11040-4HK0A Right

Keep in mind recalls are usually focused around safety. NHTSA isn't going to recommend or enforce a company to take action on recurring failures that don't have a safety risk component. This is why there can seem to be variability (to the average Joe) on what is enforced as a recall vs a volunteer action taken by a manufacturer.

 

[Turbonut]

Keep in mind recalls are usually focused around safety. NHTSA isn't going to recommend or enforce a company to take action on recurring failures that don't have a safety risk component. This is why there can seem to be variability (to the average Joe) on what is enforced as a recall vs a volunteer action taken by a manufacturer.

There was a safety risk involved as when the engine started to commit suicide, people that were not aware of what could happen and no CEL, continued to drive the car, it would seize at highway speed and/or throw a rod through the block and up in flames it would go. They were fined millions for dragging their feet and had a recall to check engine bearings back in 2015, but no recall on the KSDS update that had to be done so as the lifetime warranty would be available. The KSDS update was also a safety factor as when the update was installed it would throw the CEL when bottom end bearing knock was detected and put the car in limp mode 1800 RPM tops so it wouldn't go up in flames.

Show you how ridiculous the NHTSA is, because the suit was settled in 2019, the 2020 Sonata and 2020 Santa Fe, same engines as the previous 10 years, they weren't covered, go figure, nor any vehicle that didn't have the KSDS update installed, they would be on their own, no assistance.

 

[damonb10]

There was a safety risk involved as when the engine started to commit suicide, people that were not aware of what could happen and no CEL, continued to drive the car, it would seize at highway speed and/or throw a rod through the block and up in flames it would go. They were fined millions for dragging their feet and had a recall to check engine bearings back in 2015, but no recall on the KSDS update that had to be done so as the lifetime warranty would be available. The KSDS update was also a safety factor as when the update was installed it would throw the CEL when bottom end bearing knock was detected and put the car in limp mode 1800 RPM tops so it wouldn't go up in flames.

Show you how ridiculous the NHTSA is, because the suit was settled in 2019, the 2020 Sonata and 2020 Santa Fe, same engines as the previous 10 years, they weren't covered, go figure, nor any vehicle that didn't have the KSDS update installed, they would be on their own, no assistance.

I'm referring to the situation of the VR30. I haven't heard of any of these results occurring with the VR30 (though I understand anything is possible). Most VR30 failures from this issue were identified the loss of heating in the cabin, rising / overheating of the engine, engine noises, flashing mil light, reduced performance, etc....

By the way, I'm not arguing against you or anyone else. I'm just sharing what my understanding is of how NHTSA approaches situations like this.

 

[IridiumRS400]

Poor design is the root cause, but multiple things can actually cause the problem as they didn't leave enough material around the coolant channels and head bolts, so there is very little margin for error during casting and being slightly over on the torque spec means its easier to over torque the head-bolts and cause a crack.

Also throw the temperature gradient that exists across that small cross-section (exhaust gas temp vs coolant temp) during operation. Different thermal expansion rates due to temp differences within the Aluminum casting can cause crack propogation.

It's all additive.

 

[itsecmgr@gmail.com]

I can attest that coolant leaking into the VR30 oil has potentially explosive results getting on to a highway.🥴

 

[scott_n_ca]

I'm referring to the situation of the VR30. I haven't heard of any of these results occurring with the VR30 (though I understand anything is possible). Most VR30 failures from this issue were identified the loss of heating in the cabin, rising / overheating of the engine, engine noises, flashing mil light, reduced performance, etc....

By the way, I'm not arguing against you or anyone else. I'm just sharing what my understanding is of how NHTSA approaches situations like this.

I can attest that coolant leaking into the VR30 oil has potentially explosive results getting on to a highway.🥴

Did you make a report to NHTSA? It was literally only like 5 or 6 GM L87 reports of grenading on the highway that got it deemed a safety defect IIRC

 

[BigHeadClan]

I can attest that coolant leaking into the VR30 oil has potentially explosive results getting on to a highway.🥴

Yeah but you feed your VR30 beans, is it any shock that it shat itself on the highway one day? I kid, I kid.